Christ Alone

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Posts by Christ Alone

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  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  Christ Alone

  Are you a converted Jew, MP?
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  We were not discussing the dates of Yom Kippur, MP. You said that it doesn't exist in scripture. I showed you very clearly that it does. It was a DAY OF ATONEMENT. Atonement for SIN. The Jews had sin offerings to cover their failures, and even consecrate priests.

  I'm sorry, but you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on with this. Sin IS in the Bible. Maybe Jews don't believe in the Christian concept of sin, but they still believe in sin. The word is discussed over and over again in the OT.

  There are several Hebrew words that refer to sin. One is raah. It is used more than 600 times and means "evil" or "bad". According to Strong, it carries the implication of something that is contrary to God's nature.

  Another is Chaaah. It's used 300 times and is usually translated "sin" or "offense". It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.

  Rasha is closely related and is used more than 250 times. It is usually translated "wicked". It carries the implication of something that is morally wrong.

  Avon is used more than 200 times and is most often translated "iniquity". It carries the implication of being perverse, crooked, or twisted.

  Perha is used 100 times and is translated "transgression". It carries the implication of REBELLION.

  Asham is used more than 30 times and is translated as "guilty". It carries the implication of offense or tresspass.

  There are several others, but I think you get the point. Sin is very present in the OT. And the Jews understood the need for the guilt of it to be removed in order to have a good standing before YHWH. Hence, the sacrifices.

  Hebrews shows that these sacrifices pointed towards Jesus. Of course, modern non messianic Jews do not agree.
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  As far as prophecy, I would ask someone to read this and tell me who it is speaking about and where it can be found:

  he was pierced for our rebellion,
  crushed for our sins.
  He was beaten so we could be whole.
  He was whipped so we could be healed.
  All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
  We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
  Yet the Lord laid on him
  the sins of us all.

  He was oppressed and treated harshly,
  yet he never said a word.
  He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
  And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
  he did not open his mouth.
  Unjustly condemned,
  he was led away.
  No one cared that he died without descendants,
  that his life was cut short in midstream.
  But he was struck down
  for the rebellion of my people.
  He had done no wrong
  and had never deceived anyone.
  But he was buried like a criminal;
  he was put in a rich man’s grave.

  This all easily applies to Jesus of Nazareth. Yet, it was written in Isaiah. Even Jews look to the OT for prophecies about Messiah. They don't see that it was fufilled in Jesus, so they are still looking for Messiah. The Jews have been without contact with God and understanding for a very long time. Their history, in the OT is full of them not understanding and drawing away from God. Over and over again. The OT is full of examples. It matters not that they rejected Messiah, to me. Jesus clearly fulfilled countless prophecies about him.

  The accusation CAN be made that the writers went through the OT and forced the fulfillment (which I believe is the point you are trying to make, MP). But when they wrote the gospel and gave it to Christians, those reading would have known if the claims were true or false. They lived through it. Or AT LEAST would have had relatives and friends who did.
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  Well the SIN offering is in Leviticus 4:1-5:13. You can start there. Also 6:24-30.

  The Sin Offering is first mentioned in Ex 29:36. It says, " Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it."

  I'm a little bemused that you think a Sin Offering is not in the Torah...

  Sin offerings were offered for sins of ignorance, at the consecration of priests, at the consecration of Levites, at the expiration of a Nazarite's vow, one the day of atonement (Yom Kippur), and was a holy sacrifice

  For sins of ignorance.

  Leviticus 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

  Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have donesomewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning thingswhich should not be done, and are guilty;

  Leviticus 4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

  Leviticus 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORDconcerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

  At the consecration of priests.

  Exodus 29:10 And thou shalt cause a bullock to be brought before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the bullock.

  Exodus 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.

  At the consecration of Levites.

  Numbers 8:8 Then let them take a young bullock with his meat offering, even fine flour mingled with oil, and another young bullock shalt thou take for a sin offering.

  At the expiration of a Nazarite's vow.

  Numbers 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

  On the day of atonement.

  Leviticus 16:3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.

  Leviticus 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

  Was a most holy sacrifice.

  Leviticus 6:25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

  Leviticus 6:29 All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy.
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  Yom Kippur IS in the Torah. I just assumed you were more of a Jewish expert with how you were talking.

  It is known as the Day of Atonement. It is discussed in Leviticus 23:27 and decrees a prohibition of work and food. Yom Kippur are mentioned in three passages in the Torah:

  Leviticus 16:1-34 - Gold told Moses that only Aaron can enter the sanctuary when God is present on the cover in a cloud. If Aaron enters at any other time, he will die. On the tenth day of the 7th month, God said that the people must not work in order to cleanse and atone for their sins. The Kohen will lead in the atonement of all the people.

  Leviticus 23:26-32 - God tells Moses that the 10th day of the month is the day of atonement and will be holy. The people must give a fire offering to God and not work. God tells Moses that whoever DOES work will be killed. This is a day of total rest from the evening of the 9th day to the following evening.

  Numbers 29:7-11 - The 10th day of the 7th month is a holy day and one must not work. They will give an elevation offering by sacrificing a young bull, a ram, and seven lambs who are a year old. They must also provide a SIN offering of a male goat.

  So yes, Yom Kippur is in the Torah. Very clearly. And YES, they did believe in sin.
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  Because here are SOME of them:

  SUBJECT	OT Prophecy	NT Fulfillment
  As the Son of God	Ps 2:7	Lu 1:32,35
  As the seed of the woman	Ge 3:15	Ga 4:4
  As the seed of Abraham	Ge 17:7 22:18	Ga 3:16
  As the seed of Isaac	Ge 21:12	Heb 11:17-19
  As the seed of David	Ps 132:11 Jer 23:5	Ac 13:23 Ro 1:3
  His coming at a set time	Ge 49:10 Da 9:24,25	Lu 2:1
  His being born of a virgin	Isa 7:14	Mt 1:22,23 Lu 2:7
  His being called Immanuel	Isa 7:14	Mt 1:22,23
  His being born in Bethlehem of Judea	Mic 5:2	Mt 2:1 Lu 2:4-6
  Great persons coming to adore him	Ps 72:10	Mt 2:1-11
  The slaying of the children of Bethlehem	Jer 31:15	Mt 2:16-18
  His being called out of Egypt	Ho 11:1	Mt 2:15
  His being preceded by John the Baptist	Isa 40:3 Mal 3:1	Mt 3:1,3 Lu 1:17
  His being anointed with the Spirit	Ps 45:7 Isa 11:2 61:1	Mt 3:16 Joh 3:34 Ac 10:38
  His being a Prophet like to Moses	De 18:15-18	Ac 3:20-22
  His being a Priest after the order of Melchizedek	Ps 110:4	Heb 5:5,6
  His entering on his public ministry	Isa 61:1,2	Lu 4:16-21,43
  His ministry commencing in Galilee	Isa 9:1,2	Mt 4:12-16,23
  His entering publicly into Jerusalem	Zec 9:9	Mt 21:1-5
  His coming into the temple	Hag 2:7,9 Mal 3:1	Mt 21:12 Lu 2:27-32 Joh 2:13-16
  His poverty	Isa 53:2	Mr 6:3 Lu 9:58
  His meekness and want of ostentatious	Isa 42:2	Mt 12:15,16,19
  His tenderness and compassion	Isa 40:11 42:3	Mt 12:15,20 Heb 4:15
  His being without guile	Isa 53:9	1Pe 2:22
  His zeal	Ps 69:9	Joh 2:17
  His preaching by parables	Ps 78:2	Mt 13:34,35
  His working miracles	Isa 35:5,6	Mt 11:4-6 Joh 11:47
  His bearing reproach	Ps 22:6 69:7,9,20	Ro 15:3
  His being rejected by his brethren	Ps 69:8 Isa 63:3	Joh 1:11 7:3
  His being a stone of stumbling to the Jews	Isa 8:14	Ro 9:32 1Pe 2:8
  His being hated by the Jews	Ps 69:4 Isa 49:7	Joh 15:24,25
  His being rejected by the Jewish rulers	Ps 118:22	Mt 21:42 Joh 7:48
  That the Jews and Gentiles should combine against Him	Ps 2:1,2	Lu 23:12 Ac 4:27
  His being betrayed by a friend	Ps 41:9 55:12-14	Joh 13:18,21
  His disciples forsaking him	Zec 13:7	Mt 26:31,56
  His being sold for thirty pieces silver	Zec 11:12	Mt 26:15
  His price being given for the potter's field	Zec 11:13	Mt 27:7
  The intensity of his sufferings	Ps 22:14,15	Lu 22:42,44
  His sufferings being for others	Isa 53:4-6,12 Da 9:26	Mt 20:28
  His patience and silence under suffering	Isa 53:7	Mt 26:63 27:12-14
  His being smitten on the cheek	Mic 5:1	Mt 27:30
  His visage being marred	Isa 52:14 53:3	Joh 19:5
  His being spit on and scourged	Isa 50:6	Mr 14:65 Joh 19:1
  His hands and feet being nailed to the cross	Ps 22:16	Joh 19:18 20:25
  His being forsaken by God	Ps 22:1	Mt 27:46
  His being mocked	Ps 22:7,8	Mt 27:39-44
  Gall and vinegar being given him to drink	Ps 69:21	Mt 27:34
  His garments being parted, and lots cast for his vesture	Ps 22:18	Mt 27:35
  His being numbered with the transgressors	Isa 53:12	Mr 15:28
  His intercession for His murderers	Isa 53:12	Lu 23:34
  His Death	Isa 53:12	Mt 27:50
  That a bone of him should not be broken	Ex 12:46 Ps 34:20	Joh 19:33,36
  His being pierced	Zec 12:10	Joh 19:34,37
  His being buried with the rich	Isa 53:9	Mt 27:57-60
  His flesh not seeing corruption	Ps 16:10	Ac 2:31
  His resurrection	Ps 16:10 Isa 26:19	Lu 24:6,31,34
  His ascension	Ps 68:18	Lu 24:51 Ac 1:9
  His sitting on the right hand of God	Ps 110:1	Heb 1:3
  His exercising the priestly office in heaven	Zec 6:13	Ro 8:34
  His being the chief corner-stone of the Church	Isa 28:16	1Pe 2:6,7
  His being King in Zion	Ps 2:6	Lu 1:32 Joh 18:33-37
  The conversion of the Gentiles to him	Isa 11:10 42:1	Mt 1:17,21 Joh 10:16 Ac 10:45,47
  His righteous government	Ps 45:6,7	Joh 5:30 Re 19:11
  His universal dominion	Ps 72:8 Da 7:14	Php 2:9,11
  The perpetuity of his kingdom	Isa 9:7 Da 7:14	Lu 1:32,33
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  3. 
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  Christ Alone

  So, MP, are you saying that Jesus did NOT fufill prophecies about Him?
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

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  3. 
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  Christ Alone

  The NT can say whatever it wants but the idea of fulfilling the law is not present in the OT

  Of course it doesn't! The Law was incomplete! Anyone that does not understand "Progressive Revelation" will not get this. The Jews are STILL looking for Messiah, and He has already come and gone. 2000 years ago! When one only has the OT to look at, everything is incomplete. They have a partial Revelation of God. The book of Revelation, rather than being a doomsday book with literal events, is a fulfillment of everything. Without a full understanding of the OT, understanding Revelation is impossible.

  All parts of the OT are fulfilled in Jesus. Messiah is present in every part of the OT. Every law was pointing towards Messiah. The Law was for the forgiveness of transgression of the people. Jesus was to remove the transgression.

  Isaiah 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgement and who shall declare his generation? For he was cutt off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

  No sin?

  1John 2:2 - "And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

  Daniel 9:26 - "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."

  Here is a prophecy that is very apparent on JWN:

  Isaiah 53:3 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
• 
  229

  How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

  by mP in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  theres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.

  im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?

  then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Christ Alone

  Can you tell us what Yom Kippur is then, MP?

  Or what about Sin offerings?

  While Jews believe that everyone is born "good", they DO believe in sin.

  Judaism was off base already at the time of Christ. The Pharisees were Jews and taught many wrong things about the scriptures. Jesus corrected them constantly. They were wrong about their rules on Sabbath. They were wrong on Law justifying a person. These false ideas kept going, and the Jewish Christians had to be corrected majorly. Hebrews is a major example of their need for correction. They were going back to things that were to be left behind.
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  55

  The Bible---Have You Watched It On The History Channel?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i must admit, i am a sucker for bible movies.

  i do not get the history channel on my cable service but i've heard good things about the series.. have you seen it?.

  are you interested in these types of programs..

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  Christ Alone

  I like it. Yes, they changed some specific details to keep the story moving. They couldn't include every single detail and every single story. But it does great in helping to picture the scenes. And it does show what a brutal time it was. Modern western culture doesn't like to think of how brutal it was back then, and the Israelites warring with other nations. I disagree that the acting is bad. I thinks its quite good. And I like the casting. Except for Samson...Outlaw was right. He had boobs and looked more overweight than strong.

  It's gritty and violent, like the Bible describes. I'm really looking forward to the parts on Jesus, of course... :-)